Glitch City Laboratories Forums

Lab β: Glitch City Labs Projects => Project "Palette Town" => Topic started by: SatoMew on February 11, 2015, 02:00:00 pm

Title: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: SatoMew on February 11, 2015, 02:00:00 pm
How does GCLF prefer GBC screenshots? With the real GBC colors or with the raw RGB values? By default, BGB does the former. To quote its readme file:

Quote from: BGB
GBC LCD colors: (on) make GBC colors look as on real GBC. disable to use RGB values directly without conversion.

Here's a comparison. Left = real GBC colors, right = raw RGB values

(http://i.imgur.com/ZgMWfiw.png)
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: Hālian on February 12, 2015, 01:11:34 pm
I would personally rather have the screenshot on the right.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: SatoMew on February 12, 2015, 01:27:46 pm
I'm also asking this because I believe these sort of things should be standardized. It'd be awkward to see a mix of the two on the wiki's articles, and then that would lead to the question of which type of screenshot is "correct". Since people may use different emulators (VBA & VBA-M use the raw RGB values by default, BGB uses the real GBC colors by default, Gambatte by default looks different than all three, etc.), it's important that the desired look is established.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: Lunamann on March 17, 2015, 05:08:35 pm
...that would lead to the question of which type of screenshot is "correct". Since people may use different emulators (VBA & VBA-M use the raw RGB values by default, BGB uses the real GBC colors by default, Gambatte by default looks different than all three, etc.), it's important that the desired look is established.

Don't forget that people will also be doing these glitches on the actual hardware as well- not all of us are emulating.

Personally, I say that the "real GBC" option is best, as it's what the actual hardware uses, and thus is the option that has the most claim to being "correct". But that's just me.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: Zowayix on March 18, 2015, 12:57:04 am
...that would lead to the question of which type of screenshot is "correct". Since people may use different emulators (VBA & VBA-M use the raw RGB values by default, BGB uses the real GBC colors by default, Gambatte by default looks different than all three, etc.), it's important that the desired look is established.

Don't forget that people will also be doing these glitches on the actual hardware as well- not all of us are emulating.

Personally, I say that the "real GBC" option is best, as it's what the actual hardware uses, and thus is the option that has the most claim to being "correct". But that's just me.

Personally I would say that just because the real hardware displays washed out colours doesn't mean it's "correct", it's just accurate to the real hardware, which is "incorrect". Consider that IIRC Super Game Boy and Pokemon Stadium's GB Tower don't have washed out colours, unless I'm wrong, in which case disregard everything I just said.

Pulling all that aside (or is it putting?) and just considering both pictures as being original with no "real hardware" to be "correct" towards (like if you were showing me 2 pictures of a pretentious retraux indie game you were making), I think the left picture looks "better" anyway, because the colours look more "natural" because Game Freak designed their games to look "good" on a washed out LCD screen and the right one looks like someone opened an image editor and fucked with the saturation slider.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: Háčky on March 18, 2015, 05:05:52 am
Personally I would say that just because the real hardware displays washed out colours doesn't mean it's "correct", it's just accurate to the real hardware, which is "incorrect". Consider that IIRC Super Game Boy and Pokemon Stadium's GB Tower don't have washed out colours, unless I'm wrong, in which case disregard everything I just said.

The backlit GBA SP (model AGS-101) also displays bright colors. The washed-out colors are only a limitation of the frontlit LCDs used in the earlier systems. In fact, the GBA displays different washed-out colors than the GBC, as Martin Korth complained in the Pan Docs (http://problemkaputt.de/pandocs.htm#lcdcolorpalettescgbonly):

Quote
Even though GBA is described to be compatible to CGB games, most CGB games are completely unplayable on GBAs because most colors are invisible (black). Of course, colors such like Black and White will appear the same on both CGB and GBA, but medium intensities are arranged completely different.
Intensities in range 00h..0Fh are invisible/black (unless eventually under best sunlight circumstances, and when gazing at the screen under obscure viewing angles), unfortunately, these intensities are regulary used by most existing CGB games for medium and darker colors.
Newer CGB games may avoid this effect by changing palette data when detecting GBA hardware. A relative simple method would be using the formula GBA=CGB/2+10h for each R,G,B intensity, probably the result won't be perfect, and (once colors became visible) it may turn out that the color mixing is different also, anyways, it'd be still ways better than no conversion.
Asides, this translation method should have been VERY easy to implement in GBA hardware directly, even though Nintendo obviously failed to do so. How did they say, This seal is your assurance for excellence in workmanship and so on?

As far as I’m aware, Nintendo has never used any color correction for GBC games, even for the Virtual Console. But if they have, that would be interesting and more convincing than whatever BGB does.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: Evie Torchic the Glitch Scientist on March 20, 2015, 02:35:45 pm
The backlit GBA SP (model AGS-101) also displays bright colors. The washed-out colors are only a limitation of the frontlit LCDs used in the earlier systems.

If it's not too trouble, can somebody use a camera to take a both a GBA AGS-001 and GBA AGS-101 screenshot of that spot in Pokémon Crystal please?

I agree with Lunamann that we should use something closer to original hardware, but I am not sure of what the colours on a  AGS-001 and AGS-101 Game Boy Advance look like. I agree with Zowayix that the left picture looks better (though I think whether it is 'better' or not is subjective). Let's vote here (http://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php?topic=7250.0).
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: SatoMew on March 20, 2015, 02:51:30 pm
Personally I would say that just because the real hardware displays washed out colours doesn't mean it's "correct", it's just accurate to the real hardware, which is "incorrect". Consider that IIRC Super Game Boy and Pokemon Stadium's GB Tower don't have washed out colours, unless I'm wrong, in which case disregard everything I just said.

The Game Boy Tower seems to use the raw RGB values as per this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIz1RAg25yM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIz1RAg25yM)

The backlit GBA SP (model AGS-101) also displays bright colors. The washed-out colors are only a limitation of the frontlit LCDs used in the earlier systems. In fact, the GBA displays different washed-out colors than the GBC, as Martin Korth complained in the Pan Docs (http://problemkaputt.de/pandocs.htm#lcdcolorpalettescgbonly).

As far as I’m aware, Nintendo has never used any color correction for GBC games, even for the Virtual Console. But if they have, that would be interesting and more convincing than whatever BGB does.

BGB seems to be accurate about this, though. IIRC, its default setting replicates a real GBC faithfully but I only played these games on a friend's GBC years ago (I only have the original GB and the original GBA).

Let's vote here (http://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php?topic=7250.0).

Oops, looks like you messed up the quote there.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: Evie Torchic the Glitch Scientist on March 20, 2015, 03:07:27 pm
Let's vote here (http://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php?topic=7250.0).

Oops, looks like you messed up the quote there.

Thanks for telling me! I got rid of there being a second copy of the pictures now.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: SatoMew on March 20, 2015, 03:23:44 pm
Thanks for telling me! I got rid of there being a second copy of the pictures now.

You're welcome :)

Here's the equivalent of the OP pic in Gambatte. Enabling "GBA CGB Mode" doesn't seem to affect the outcome in Pokémon Crystal.

(http://i.imgur.com/K2rSHuo.png)

For some reason, Gambatte doesn't read the save data properly.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: Háčky on March 20, 2015, 08:45:51 pm
If it's not too trouble, can somebody use a camera to take a both a GBA AGS-001 and GBA AGS-101 screenshot of that spot in Pokémon Crystal please?
Only one of these is Crystal, but here’s a side-by-side photo, with closeups of each. (http://imgur.com/a/bm2Te)

(http://i.imgur.com/8muz0r4l.jpg)

The AGS-101 is on the lower of its two brightness settings. I didn’t do the Goldenrod screenshot, because I’d need to load a different save file onto my Silver cartridge that hasn’t been played since I replaced the battery, and reset the clock on all three games to daytime. The player’s bedroom has a similar range of colors anyway. Here are matching BGB screenshots:

(http://i.imgur.com/LjVmXL3.png) (http://i.imgur.com/jADbI85.png)

The AGS-101 colors are actually even more saturated than they appear in the photo (especially the blue of the TV). My impression is that the bright reds and blues look similar to the pure RGB values on my computer screen, but that the golds/browns of Goldenrod roofs and the bedroom floor are closer to the BGB or Gambatte colors. (But in the photo, it seems to be the other way around!) Adjusting the color settings in BGB to color 1.00 and gamma 1.30 brings it closer to the AGS-101, but the blue is still too pale. Aesthetically, I think that adjustment looks a bit better than either the raw RGB values or the washed-out BGB default.

I was curious how the colors were rendered in promotional screenshots, so I had a look around at the various official Web sites. The screenshots on the nintendo.co.jp page (http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n02/dmg/bxpj/) generally have an odd yellowish tint, but it varies between images (compare the white areas of this (http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n02/dmg/bxpj/g_2.jpg) and this (http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n02/dmg/bxpj/gamen/g_06.jpg)). The animated GIF in the top-right corner has a pure white background with fairly pale (BGB-like?) colors. Screenshots on the archived nintendo.com page (https://web.archive.org/web/20011004060207/http://www.nintendo.com/games/gamepage/gamepage_main.jsp?gameId=669), one of which is still in use on pokemon.com (http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-video-games/pokemon-crystal-version/), match the pure RGB values. The screenshot on pokemon.co.jp (http://www.pokemon.co.jp/export_old/sites/default/game/other/gbc-crystal/img/dp_index_pic01_02.jpg) actually appears to have been taken in an emulator (but it’s slightly gray, becaues the GBC’s 0–31 color values have simply been multiplied by 8 to a 0–248 range, rather than scaled to a 0–255 range).

If matching “original hardware” is the goal, then I would argue that the Super Game Boy is original hardware for Gold and Silver, and Stadium 2 is original hardware for Crystal. The Generation I screenshots already use SGB colors (though admittedly the alternatives in that case aren’t great). Using the SGB/Stadium 2–style pure RGB values is simpler than matching the colors of the other original hardware, and will also make Generation II screenshots consistent with Generation I and at least some official screenshots. It would also probably avert the need for a Project “Littleroot Town” and so on… :P
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: Evie Torchic the Glitch Scientist on March 23, 2015, 03:04:24 pm
Thanks Háčky!

I appreciate how you went to look at how the screenshots look like on official web pages too.
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: IIMarckus on March 24, 2015, 06:02:19 pm
Here's the equivalent of the OP pic in Gambatte. Enabling "GBA CGB Mode" doesn't seem to affect the outcome in Pokémon Crystal.
“GBA CGB mode” is not directly related to palettes. The GBA (in GBC mode) and the GBC initialize the CPU registers differently, in a way that’s detectable by software, and some games make use of this. The classic example is Zelda Oracles, which each have a door that only opens when played on a GBA (and yes, they adjust palettes too).
Title: Re: Project "New Bark Town" (hehe)
Post by: SatoMew on March 25, 2015, 10:31:05 am
Thank you, Háčky, for your detailed analysis. And I appreciate the clarification, IIMarckus :)