Glitch City Laboratories Forums

Lab γ: Video Games and Glitches Discussion => Pokémon Glitch Discussion => Generation II Glitch Discussion => Topic started by: Parzival on March 01, 2019, 03:18:30 pm

Title: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Parzival on March 01, 2019, 03:18:30 pm
don't use VC. VC is inaccurate as hell.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Bert on March 01, 2019, 05:11:18 pm
Lolwut? Cloning on VC Crystal works fine. The timing's just a little trickier. You have to restart the game after the last period in the "SAVING... DON'T TURN OFF THE POWER." message appears. Tap the touch screen and press RESET on the VC menu.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Parzival on March 02, 2019, 09:49:37 am
don't use VC. VC is inaccurate as hell.

I don't actually have a choice. That's the version I'm playing.
Once I completed the Pokedex, I'm good, I don't have to do particularly weird stuff with ACE
i mean... if your 3DS/2DS is hacked, I can fix the inaccuracy problem, but ok...
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Nostalgia on March 03, 2019, 02:46:10 am
Telling someone to not use the VC version doesn't help anyone considering a lot of people bought the VC version for it's ability to transfer the Pokemon to current gen, the Celebi event, and having a Crystal file with no internal battery issues like the original games had. There are also some people who prefer playing a legitimate version of the game and not a dodgy emulator.

Anyway OP good luck. I completed the pokedex on Pokemon Crystal back in the day with trades and a coin case Celebi from my Gold version. When the virtual console games released I picked up VC Gold and completed the Pokedex in that game as that is easy to accomplish with the coin case trick. I never picked up VC Crystal and thought it would be harder to get all 251 for the reasons you mentioned. I remember trying to perform the Celebi egg glitch on Crystal years ago and ended up deleting my save file so I never really messed with it after that.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Parzival on March 03, 2019, 08:33:57 pm
There are also some people who prefer playing a legitimate version of the game and not a dodgy emulator.
You, uh...

You do know...

You do know that VC for GB/GBC isn't accurate worth a s**t, right? That VC is a dodgy emulator?

The only VC type that's accurate is GBA, and that's because it's running on the 3DS' ARM7 (used for DS/GBA back-compatibility.)

I can embed a ROM into a standalone RetroArch Gambatte core. Gambatte is quite a bit more accurate than VC, so I offered it. (I only do this for people who own the VC copy, they have to pull their own ROM from the VC copy.)
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Sherkel on March 03, 2019, 10:04:56 pm
VC is a dodgy emulator
This is true.

Telling someone to not use the VC version doesn't help anyone considering a lot of people bought the VC version for it's ability to transfer the Pokemon to current gen
This is too. Let's leave it at that.

(I'm not sure exactly what it checks as I haven't used it, but I'm pretty sure Bank wouldn't detect a RetroArch or Gambatte inject.)
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Nostalgia on March 04, 2019, 03:51:52 am
You do know that VC for GB/GBC isn't accurate worth a s**t, right? That VC is a dodgy emulator?

My wording was off. By dodgy I meant illegal. Regardless people should respect what version people play their games on.  Even with VC's issues I respect someone more for playing that version because at least it's legitimate and they payed for the game. 

No, I don't mind because VC Crystal even with its problems is STILL an official release.
A Retroarch emulated Crystal may be more faithful to the original Crystal from 20 years ago, but it doesn't really matter. VC is an official release, that's how you are supposed to play the game today on a 3DS.

This.

So how is the run going now? Reading the steps you wrote earlier it seems a bit tedious and not as fun imo. I enjoy the aspect of trying to catch all the Pokemon I can available in the game, and for the ones I can't get use glitches. Using one code to get them all after a long setup seems a bit dull but I guess it's faster..
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: ISSOtm on March 04, 2019, 08:13:25 am
Maybe this should be split into a separate thread, but I'm going to drop my opinion here anyways, we'll see.

No, I don't mind because VC Crystal even with its problems is STILL an official release.
A Retroarch emulated Crystal may be more faithful to the original Crystal from 20 years ago, but it doesn't really matter. VC is an official release, that's how you are supposed to play the game today on a 3DS.
That I can't agree with. VC isn't a release, it's the same game, bundled in their own (bad (very)) emulator. It's an official emulator, but by no means a new release.
There are already plenty of debates regarding such re-releases, and people's opinions differ, so we probably should agree to disagree and move on (this includes nobody piping in to criticize others buying an inaccurate emulator when better free ones are available, even if they think so.)

Also, ALL I have to do with ACE... Is just catching Pokemon. That's IT.
Does such a simple task require emulation accuracy?
That I do agree with. VC is a thing that exists, and unlike VBA, it has a thing exclusive to it - being playable without hacking your 3DS. Let's just help people and avoid bitching about it before actually helping. (I have a strong tendency to do that as well, I'm not directing this at Parzi.)
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: ympyrätesti on March 04, 2019, 10:13:59 am
Obligatory "building pokecrystal wouldn't give you the differences in the VC version". Saves would probably still load the same if someone wanted to switch between the two, unless the VC version changes the checksum or something...actually, that'd be worth testing.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Epsilon on March 04, 2019, 10:25:13 am
Saves would probably still load the same if someone wanted to switch between the two, unless the VC version changes the checksum or something...actually, that'd be worth testing.

When Torchickens was testing my GS Memory editor (https://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php?topic=8241.0), she managed to confirm it to work on VC.

I'm assuming this means she prepared a save the memory editor already setup, and then loaded that onto VC. Either that, or she manually wrote the payload herself, in which case I severely applaud her patience.

This is of course assuming the same applies to VC Crystal.

Obligatory "building pokecrystal wouldn't give you the differences in the VC version"

Of course not.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Link_enfant on March 08, 2019, 10:08:22 am
As for the debate on that VC thing:[...]So, FOR ME, if you're playing in a 3DS, the VC version is the most legitimate (not accurate) way to play the game.[...]
I'm curious to know if there are any VC emulation accuracy problems that can be actually observed in regular gameplay (not talking about glitches, ACE or such) compared to real hardware or more accurate third party emulators for Crystal?
I know there are some odd (though minor) differences in G/S, like the title screen ending earlier (cutting the end of the music) and the HP/Exp bars of the attacker Pokémon not disappearing during the attack animation, but those aren't present in VC Crystal, which - at first glance - make this version appear to be at least more accurate than VC G/S.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Parzival on March 08, 2019, 10:49:51 pm
make this version appear to be at least more accurate than VC G/S.
It's all the same VC version, just a swapped-out ROM.

Actually, that's not true, there are 2 versions, but it was just improvements to sound output (OUTPUT TO THE 3DS, not handling the GBx side of it.)
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Sherkel on March 09, 2019, 12:18:19 pm
This was split from this thread: https://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php?topic=8670.0

For the most part, both are still perfectly readable.

I'll be making a sticky in Glitch Discussion to clarify that emulation differences matter when playing with the code at a base level as a lot of "modern glitches" do.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Epsilon on March 09, 2019, 12:53:22 pm
I feel that the use of VC should be strongly discouraged whenever it is seen, to prevent frivolous "glitches" and questions.

Seeing the use of VC makes it difficult to determine whether or not the issue lies with an actual problem with the ACE code/glitch itself, or VC's terrible emulation accuracy.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Parzival on March 09, 2019, 02:42:53 pm
I can inject a ROM into RetroArch's Gambatte core, and it becomes a standalone game, like VC. It looks a lot like an actual VC game. If they extract the ROM from a copy of the actual VC title, I can just do this for them, they can install it, and can pull their save too.

Hell, I can even add more features, like rapid-fire, screenshots, fast forward, custon controls, rewind (N3DS/N2DS only), all kinds of good s**t.

there's no real loss to it, and it makes the game accurate.

i'll probably extend these services to those using stock VC, since i'd require an extracted ROM from a VC title.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Sherkel on March 09, 2019, 07:41:07 pm
I feel that the use of VC should be strongly discouraged whenever it is seen, to prevent frivolous "glitches" and questions.

Seeing the use of VC makes it difficult to determine whether or not the issue lies with an actual problem with the ACE code/glitch itself, or VC's terrible emulation accuracy.
I think it should be indicated when it's being used, but posters generally haven't had a problem with that. Discouraging it would be fairly futile, because as some have pointed out, those are still official versions of the games.

I can inject a ROM into RetroArch's Gambatte core, and it becomes a standalone game, like VC. It looks a lot like an actual VC game. If they extract the ROM from a copy of the actual VC title, I can just do this for them, they can install it, and can pull their save too.

Hell, I can even add more features, like rapid-fire, screenshots, fast forward, custon controls, rewind (N3DS/N2DS only), all kinds of good s**t.

there's no real loss to it, and it makes the game accurate.

i'll probably extend these services to those using stock VC, since i'd require an extracted ROM from a VC title.
No offense intended, but is this anything that a combination of HackingToolkit9DS and Super Ultimate Injector can't do?

It's nice to see you offer help regardless, and I'm sure if anyone has trouble working with those to get their ROM and save onto something like BGB and then back to their 3DS, they'd want to have someone to ask about it.

As a final note,
I'm curious to know if there are any VC emulation accuracy problems that can be actually observed in regular gameplay (not talking about glitches, ACE or such) compared to real hardware or more accurate third party emulators for Crystal?
As far as I know, it's next to none, if any. Emulators are written to do their job. I don't want VC to be frowned upon just for its own sake.

Issues only come up when changing how the code functions from a base level, which is limited to glitching. (Timing too, but that's not relevant here). Gonna go make that post now.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: ISSOtm on March 31, 2019, 11:39:01 pm
As a final note,
I'm curious to know if there are any VC emulation accuracy problems that can be actually observed in regular gameplay (not talking about glitches, ACE or such) compared to real hardware or more accurate third party emulators for Crystal?
As far as I know, it's next to none, if any. Emulators are written to do their job. I don't want VC to be frowned upon just for its own sake.

Issues only come up when changing how the code functions from a base level, which is limited to glitching. (Timing too, but that's not relevant here). Gonna go make that post now.
Emulation inaccuracies, maybe not, but keep in mind the ROMs played through the VC are patched.
There's plenty of reasons to do frown upon VC because of it not doing its job. Code has been changed to work in the emulator, which is a hack. And, all code run by the CPU in the context of this official ROM is legit, hence ACE is valid and not a consequence of "changing how the code functions from a base level", however that understands it.

And finally, keep in mind that VC can brick your 3DS easily, so, yeah. Please refer to this (https://forums.glitchcity.info/index.php?topic=8680.msg213632#msg213632) :)
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Sherkel on March 31, 2019, 11:51:34 pm
I'll add some of that to the sticky. Thanks.

By the quoted part, I meant something closer to "changing what the code does", if intentionally setting particular bytes in RAM based on assembly instructions can be considered a "base level", which is how I've generally described it for ACE.

I definitely need to look up the bricking issue, as I hadn't heard of that.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Bert on March 31, 2019, 11:56:16 pm
How come my post was moved here? The timing difference I mentioned was on the cartridges, too.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Sherkel on April 01, 2019, 12:04:20 am
Because I had thought it was due to VC differences.
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: ISSOtm on April 01, 2019, 12:19:41 pm

I definitely need to look up the bricking issue, as I hadn't heard of that.
Well, that's because it was an April Fools! Think of it as a... brick joke
Title: Re: Digression about VC inaccuracy
Post by: Sherkel on April 01, 2019, 03:42:35 pm

I definitely need to look up the bricking issue, as I hadn't heard of that.
Well, that's because it was an April Fools! Think of it as a... brick joke
That reminds me of when I found a clothing store with clothes made entirely out of bricks. Everyone called it a hard-wear store. I wanted to forget about it, but it's just been cemented in my memory.