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Author Topic: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions  (Read 3175 times)

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camper

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Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« on: April 26, 2014, 10:59:35 pm »
For specific glitch Pokemon, Bulbapedia seems to have more information than here.
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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2014, 06:43:02 am »
For specific glitch Pokemon, Bulbapedia seems to have more information than here.

Bulbapedia covers glitches in more depth regarding side effects and stuff, though the side effects may be random/situational, so it can be unreliable. For example, it says the game will freeze when 4 4Hy reaches level 234 for unknown reasons, but it actually learns a Super Glitch inducing move at that level, and you can avoid the freeze by standing in that spot in the Celadon Mansion.

It is missing Photon Phoenix/Yuzihax's TM/HM compatibilities for some of its glitch articles, and possibly information from echinodermata's revised learnpool and evolution data.

That's why when making my competitive glitch teams, I had to use those documents, copy the TM/HM numbers into Sticky Notes, then look up what they were on Bulbapedia's TM page. I also think that Bulbapedia should create redirects for things like RB:C0 or RB:192 so you can find the glitch Pokémon in a different way.

Bulbapedia is probably the only site with data for the newer glitches like ????? without you having to open a file about Decamarks, etc.  I thought this page was particularly useful.

I don't like Bulbapedia's Missingno. article. I don't think it's in depth and accurate enough to be featured at all. There is a massive error in it that the Yellow B6/B7/B8 Missingno. are different to the fossil/ghost Missingno. but you get glitch sprites like that as a result of the enemy species modifier code (01xxD7CF) instead of encountering them the proper way via Ditto glitch. The B6/B7/B8 Missingno. are the fossil/ghost Missingno in both Red/Blue and Yellow.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 06:47:13 am by Torchickens »

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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 10:21:12 am »
I don't like Bulbapedia's Missingno. article. I don't think it's in depth and accurate enough to be featured at all. There is a massive error in it that the Yellow B6/B7/B8 Missingno. are different to the fossil/ghost Missingno. but you get glitch sprites like that as a result of the enemy species modifier code (01xxD7CF) instead of encountering them the proper way via Ditto glitch. The B6/B7/B8 Missingno. are the fossil/ghost Missingno in both Red/Blue and Yellow.
I wonder who added those sprites. Last time I read the article those sections didn't exist.

I have to agree that Bulbapedia hasn't put in-depth investigation/research into the glitches. The articles only state the effects, which are often random or inconsistent, without the technical details, and this would lead to misconceptions.

But then we can always edit the pages, can't we?
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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2014, 11:07:17 am »
But then we can always edit the pages, can't we?

Yeah. That's a good way of thinking. If you think that an article can be improved, it's not a good idea to wait for somebody else to step in and fix it. I was being matter of fact, but I didn't want to insult Bulbapedia.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 03:35:50 pm by Torchickens »

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(Images © Sanrio, Nintendo, Pokémon, HAL Laboratory)

✿ Hi, I'm Evie. Sex male, and spiritually doesn't believe 'male'/'female' needs to be defined; lives more stereotypically like a woman. Call me whichever pronouns you like. :)

Feel free to contact me here about anything regarding the site.

Forgiveness. I feel that the more people pray to our greatest source/God/mathematical equality for world peace, the more and more it manifests into reality (until our next spiritual death).

Thank you Nyapon for this lovely artwork. :3

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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 12:36:58 pm »
For specific glitch Pokemon, Bulbapedia seems to have more information than here.

Bulbapedia covers glitches in more depth regarding side effects and stuff, though the side effects may be random/situational, so it can be unreliable. For example, it says the game will freeze when 4 4Hy reaches level 234 for unknown reasons, but it actually learns a Super Glitch inducing move at that level, and you can avoid the freeze by standing in that spot in the Celadon Mansion.

It is missing Photon Phoenix/Yuzihax's TM/HM compatibilities for some of its glitch articles, and possibly information from echinodermata's revised learnpool and evolution data.

That's why when making my competitive glitch teams, I had to use those documents, copy the TM/HM numbers into Sticky Notes, then look up what they were on Bulbapedia's TM page. I also think that Bulbapedia should create redirects for things like RB:C0 or RB:192 so you can find the glitch Pokémon in a different way.

I found that this page has some information.  A big "Hex List" page would be more useful though.  Especially since that page needs the accent. 
When I underline text, that usualy means I am using the [‍acroynm] tag to provide aditional information.  Hover over it to view.
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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 01:45:04 pm »
I've updated the Missingno. page. Let me know if you see any errors. The Yellow TM/HM data hasn't been added yet.

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Here have some free flowers on every post ^^
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(Images © Sanrio, Nintendo, Pokémon, HAL Laboratory)

✿ Hi, I'm Evie. Sex male, and spiritually doesn't believe 'male'/'female' needs to be defined; lives more stereotypically like a woman. Call me whichever pronouns you like. :)

Feel free to contact me here about anything regarding the site.

Forgiveness. I feel that the more people pray to our greatest source/God/mathematical equality for world peace, the more and more it manifests into reality (until our next spiritual death).

Thank you Nyapon for this lovely artwork. :3

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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 03:37:37 pm »
Ok guys, Bulbapedia has us beat, time to close everything down.
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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 03:45:28 pm »
I've updated the Missingno. page. Let me know if you see any errors. The Yellow TM/HM data hasn't been added yet.

I'd still note that those forms still exist on the wiki as three seperate articles.  A note probably should be added, along with a note about what happened to those Pokémon. 

Older misinformation may be linked.  So if a correction exists, a sublink should explain why it is wrong.  I'm not too good with Bulbapedia, but is there a way to make things like that be linkable without appearing on the page?

Still, nice job. 
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camper

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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2014, 10:19:47 pm »
I've updated the Missingno. page. Let me know if you see any errors. The Yellow TM/HM data hasn't been added yet.

Quote
In its normal form, it has the same learnset as 'M (00), except that 'M (00) cannot learn Substitute via TM50 and Missingno. cannot learn Pound.
Missingno. and 'M (00) should have the same TM/HM compatibility.

Quote
In Yellow, Missingno. levels down to level 1 if it gains any experience, and cannot grow any higher due to a glitched experience type.
It CAN level up to level 255 when its experience exceeds a certain value (~15M), as it has a negative growth rate.

Also, I don't think the menu sprite needs to be shown since it varies.
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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 06:06:10 am »
Missingno. and 'M (00) should have the same TM/HM compatibility.

Oops, I didn't notice that TM50 thing was ever in the article. Thanks.

Neither normal Missingno. or 'M can learn Substitute via TM, and like you say, since TM/HM compatibility is dervied from the Pokédex number (in this case 00), all non-fossil/ghost Missingno. should have the same TM/HM compatibility.


It CAN level up to level 255 when its experience exceeds a certain value (~15M), as it has a negative growth rate.

Also, I don't think the menu sprite needs to be shown since it varies.

OK thanks, I wasn't aware of it becoming level 255.

What menu sprite do you mean?


I've updated the Missingno. page. Let me know if you see any errors. The Yellow TM/HM data hasn't been added yet.

I'd still note that those forms still exist on the wiki as three seperate articles.  A note probably should be added, along with a note about what happened to those Pokémon. 

Older misinformation may be linked.  So if a correction exists, a sublink should explain why it is wrong.  I'm not too good with Bulbapedia, but is there a way to make things like that be linkable without appearing on the page?

Still, nice job. 

I'll contact SnorlaxMonster and ask if he can remove those sub-pages. Thanks. Glad you thought I did a good job.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 06:50:19 am by Torchickens »

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Forgiveness. I feel that the more people pray to our greatest source/God/mathematical equality for world peace, the more and more it manifests into reality (until our next spiritual death).

Thank you Nyapon for this lovely artwork. :3

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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2014, 12:11:47 pm »
The sprite in Pokemon menu. The glitch sprites depend on location.

But then some Pokemon have back sprite and/or front sprite that use RAM data. Maybe add a note under the sprites?
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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2014, 01:43:58 pm »
The sprite in Pokemon menu. The glitch sprites depend on location.

Ah, yes (I was aware of that fact). Thanks for clarifying.

Quote
But then some Pokemon have back sprite and/or front sprite that use RAM data. Maybe add a note under the sprites?

Red/Blue Missingno.'s front sprite is 'always' the same (is 0x1900 in ROM bank 0? I'm confused why Stag019 says it's in RAM), but its back sprite is random indeed.

Yellow normal Missingno.'s backsprite appears to be from the ROM, so it won't change but its front sprite will cause freezes sometimes and won't other times.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 01:50:01 pm by Torchickens »

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Here have some free flowers on every post ^^
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(Images © Sanrio, Nintendo, Pokémon, HAL Laboratory)

✿ Hi, I'm Evie. Sex male, and spiritually doesn't believe 'male'/'female' needs to be defined; lives more stereotypically like a woman. Call me whichever pronouns you like. :)

Feel free to contact me here about anything regarding the site.

Forgiveness. I feel that the more people pray to our greatest source/God/mathematical equality for world peace, the more and more it manifests into reality (until our next spiritual death).

Thank you Nyapon for this lovely artwork. :3

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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2014, 03:47:53 pm »
Oh yes.  Wikipedia's article on Missingno is fairly incomplete.  At some point, it would be good to update it with citations and useful information. 
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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2014, 04:54:27 pm »
Oh yes.  Wikipedia's article on Missingno is fairly incomplete.  At some point, it would be good to update it with citations and useful information.

Trying to correct or add information on that page will get your edits immediately removed.  It took me two years just to correct a tiny piece of information without getting reverted.  It's unfortunate that they consider IGN message boards a more reliable source than, say, GCLF.

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Re: Bulbapedia and Wikipedia glitch article discussions
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2014, 05:39:29 pm »
Oh yes.  Wikipedia's article on Missingno is fairly incomplete.  At some point, it would be good to update it with citations and useful information.

That made me want to talk about how we can't cite Glitch City or Bulbapedia, Zog's Smogon post etc (though you may not have had that in mind). *oops, I got ninja'd*

On Wikipedia, I get the impression for things like featured articles verifiability is considered very important (though as a wiki with no clear leader that dogma may not be enforced if a select group of contributors or maybe even one were inactive).

Finding a 'reliable source' is tricky. Glitch City was cited before, but removed for being 'unreliable'. I get the impression that since this article is featured, Kung Fu Man, the creator and one of the main maintainers of that page wants to be very careful about what sources are used.

There is a section on Wikipedia:Verifiability that says self-published sources, including forum posts and wikis are unreliable (unless you happen to be a expert with a degree in said field maybe, and you've been cited before in a reliable third party source but this is irrelevant here because glitchology is not a subject, ha ha).

The citations in the 'characteristics' section are from two books, from 1999 and 2001. I haven't read them but if the information is from these sources, I'm impressed at how accurate they are with them being before the Pokémon Red disassembly and before BGB and its debugger even existed (I think).

I don't like the way this sounds though: "MissingNo. are used as error handlers by game developer Game Freak; they appear when the game attempts to access data for a nonexistent Pokémon species." (this is apparently based on what those books say) This may wrongly imply that all nonexistent Pokémon species are called Missingno.

As we know, glitch Pokémon past index number 190 are not referred to as Missingno. and that should be corrected if a 'reliable source' is found. Missingno. is only an error handler if you think of it in only one way. Would a single terminator character be an error handler too? I personally believe that the name "Missingno." is more likely to be a reference to it formally being a Pokémon that was considered, but was either never added to the game or was deleted (the gaps between real Pokémon and the unused cries suggest at least some may indeed have been deleted).

Books may be more reliable than forum posts; you'd want to make sure all your information is accurate and proof read it before publishing it and selling it, and it may be reviewed by peers, but you may also have forum posters who review their own posts and try to make sure it is accurate.

There's a problem here though. The closest you can get to the truth is by looking at the game code and having a knowledge of how the Game Boy's ASM works, and through trying the glitch yourself (while being careful, not making assumptions you can't prove without further research; like it would be wrong to imply you always get Mewtwo; we know it depends on the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th character in your name)

These third party sources while arguably more reliable than things like forum posts may not have authors who are familiar with the inner workings of the game. They may not have carried out scientific research and possibly looked at the code to come to their conclusions. The authors of those books (well at least the second one) sound like they did, or alternatively; but unlikely, they may have contacted Game Freak for an answer.

Oh yes.  Wikipedia's article on Missingno is fairly incomplete.  At some point, it would be good to update it with citations and useful information.

Trying to correct or add information on that page will get your edits immediately removed.  It took me two years just to correct a tiny piece of information without getting reverted.  It's unfortunate that they consider IGN message boards a more reliable source than, say, GCLF.

Well they only cite IGN articles on the Missingno. article for reception, it seems, but then it would have been better for the article to collect the views of many people other than just a journalist. Incidentally, when a popular site or influential person says something, there's a tendency for people to agree with it/them which is probably one of the problems of social research in general, but I like sociology.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 05:44:09 pm by Torchickens »

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Here have some free flowers on every post ^^
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(Images © Sanrio, Nintendo, Pokémon, HAL Laboratory)

✿ Hi, I'm Evie. Sex male, and spiritually doesn't believe 'male'/'female' needs to be defined; lives more stereotypically like a woman. Call me whichever pronouns you like. :)

Feel free to contact me here about anything regarding the site.

Forgiveness. I feel that the more people pray to our greatest source/God/mathematical equality for world peace, the more and more it manifests into reality (until our next spiritual death).

Thank you Nyapon for this lovely artwork. :3