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Author Topic: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"  (Read 34965 times)

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~Poke~

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2015, 10:04:54 pm »
Hello, I was a member of both HoO forums (and their predecessor PokemonGlitching101). I was pretty young at the time so I didn't contribute anything useful but I did my best to keep up with all the threads so I do remember a lot.

It's not possible to reach 430N in (US) Platinum via tweaking. I'm not sure about Japanese. I just tested it myself in NO$GBA to be sure, and there are invisible walls all around the building. They do behave a bit weirdly, since it's possible to get stuck if you're persistent in walking back and forth (perhaps they're elevation changes? Or they could just change). Using the walk through walls code you can pass them no problems.

If you want to make sure your results are tweaking compatible, just disable the code after getting outside Poketch Co. This gives pretty boring results in Platinum, since I'm not aware of any inside location that doesn't have the walls. It's important in (US) Diamond/Pearl though since invisible walls are rare but do show up very occasionally.

SatoMew

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2015, 04:04:30 am »
Hello, I was a member of both HoO forums (and their predecessor PokemonGlitching101). I was pretty young at the time so I didn't contribute anything useful but I did my best to keep up with all the threads so I do remember a lot.

Hey ~Poke~, nice to meet you! :)

It's not possible to reach 430N in (US) Platinum via tweaking. I'm not sure about Japanese. I just tested it myself in NO$GBA to be sure, and there are invisible walls all around the building. They do behave a bit weirdly, since it's possible to get stuck if you're persistent in walking back and forth (perhaps they're elevation changes? Or they could just change). Using the walk through walls code you can pass them no problems.

If you want to make sure your results are tweaking compatible, just disable the code after getting outside Poketch Co. This gives pretty boring results in Platinum, since I'm not aware of any inside location that doesn't have the walls. It's important in (US) Diamond/Pearl though since invisible walls are rare but do show up very occasionally.

Yes, I'm well aware that the walls are a problem if one tweaks rather than using wall-disabling codes. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't tweak because it's very hard for me to successfully achieve the desired result.

I believe that both methods are valid in the study of the void since the "walk through walls" or "walk anywhere" codes lift some of the limitations that would render access impossible in certain cases.

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2015, 08:06:22 am »
Hey ~Poke~, nice to meet you! :)

Yes, I'm well aware that the walls are a problem if one tweaks rather than using wall-disabling codes. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't tweak because it's very hard for me to successfully achieve the desired result.

I believe that both methods are valid in the study of the void since the "walk through walls" or "walk anywhere" codes lift some of the limitations that would render access impossible in certain cases.

On page 3 you were asking, so I thought I should clarify. Looking back, that was in February so I guess you got your answer elsewhere.
Codes certainly are a good way to explore, since they allow more access. A lot of Hall of Origin's efforts were focused on the glitching only side - mostly trying to find Arceus (which proved impossible) but also the other events, early access to regular legendaries, and Hall of Fame for speedruns.
Once the practical uses like that are out of the way, it's interesting to see what's out there and codes are necessary for most exploration outside of Diamond and Pearl.
HoO's approach to this is probably why there's less information about Platinum, and basically nothing about Heart Gold and Soul Silver.

On that subject, it would be nice if Hall of Origin and etc. hadn't moved around so much. Between the four separate forums by my count (two by each name) there would have been some pretty solid documentation at least on Diamond and Pearl's void. That Google doc seems to have a lot of the basics covered though.

I haven't seen the second PG101 mentioned here. Judging by the Wayback Machine and posts on the original, it seems to have existed from late 2008 to mid 2009. I don't know what was on there, since there don't seem to be any records but it was around that time that people started to actually understand void exploration. Still, anything discovered there was probably repeated in the HoO vBulletin backup so it shouldn't mean any knowledge was lost.
I made a (very low quality) Youtube video of Jubilife City music with one track disabled which directed people there, and shows the logo.

SatoMew

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2015, 09:43:09 am »
On page 3 you were asking, so I thought I should clarify. Looking back, that was in February so I guess you got your answer elsewhere.

No, it's OK. I appreciate your help and all input is welcome :)

Codes certainly are a good way to explore, since they allow more access. A lot of Hall of Origin's efforts were focused on the glitching only side - mostly trying to find Arceus (which proved impossible) but also the other events, early access to regular legendaries, and Hall of Fame for speedruns.
Once the practical uses like that are out of the way, it's interesting to see what's out there and codes are necessary for most exploration outside of Diamond and Pearl.
HoO's approach to this is probably why there's less information about Platinum, and basically nothing about Heart Gold and Soul Silver.

I believe it may be possible to find a path to the real Hall of Origin but, much like with the path I found to the Underground, it'll come up randomly :P The only known Hall of Origin path is the one that leads the player to the unused copy that has no events or warps programmed. Crystalmourne has a video showing this.

On that subject, it would be nice if Hall of Origin and etc. hadn't moved around so much. Between the four separate forums by my count (two by each name) there would have been some pretty solid documentation at least on Diamond and Pearl's void. That Google doc seems to have a lot of the basics covered though.

I haven't seen the second PG101 mentioned here. Judging by the Wayback Machine and posts on the original, it seems to have existed from late 2008 to mid 2009. I don't know what was on there, since there don't seem to be any records but it was around that time that people started to actually understand void exploration. Still, anything discovered there was probably repeated in the HoO vBulletin backup so it shouldn't mean any knowledge was lost.

It is indeed unfortunate due to the information loss :-\

I made a (very low quality) Youtube video of Jubilife City music with one track disabled which directed people there, and shows the logo.

That sounds like the theme played in the "Jubilife City" voids that you encounter on the path to the Underground, which you can listen to for a while in the video I made (linked to on page 3).

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2015, 10:50:47 am »
I believe it may be possible to find a path to the real Hall of Origin but, much like with the path I found to the Underground, it'll come up randomly :P The only known Hall of Origin path is the one that leads the player to the unused copy that has no events or warps programmed. Crystalmourne has a video showing this.

The Hall of Origin itself may be found, but the Arceus battle can't be started since it's a scripted part of the event. People did search for a way to trigger the event, like the other events that can be triggered in the void (Underground tutorial, receiving the Pal Pad, getting kicked out of the restaurant because it's closed) but they weren't successful.

The Hall of Origin event relies on having the flute so this wouldn't work without at least already having the flags set, though there's also the question of how the event itself is triggered. It starts by using the flute in Spear Pillar, so whether anything can be triggered in the Hall of Origin at all depends on how it's coded.

It still would be interesting to find the real Hall. It's strange that it hasn't already shown up, though it's probably just coincidence. In Diamond and Pearl Arceus apparently is there (though can't be interacted with) so it would be a novelty to see.

That sounds like the theme played in the "Jubilife City" voids that you encounter on the path to the Underground, which you can listen to for a while in the video I made (linked to on page 3).

Yep, that's it. It seems to be the base track without the additions from day or night. I wonder if other songs can be heard like that.

SatoMew

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2015, 10:59:59 am »
The Hall of Origin itself may be found, but the Arceus battle can't be started since it's a scripted part of the event. People did search for a way to trigger the event, like the other events that can be triggered in the void (Underground tutorial, receiving the Pal Pad, getting kicked out of the restaurant because it's closed) but they weren't successful.

The Hall of Origin event relies on having the flute so this wouldn't work without at least already having the flags set, though there's also the question of how the event itself is triggered. It starts by using the flute in Spear Pillar, so whether anything can be triggered in the Hall of Origin at all depends on how it's coded.

When you say that the Hall of Origin can be found, are you referring to the real one? If so, does it mean that people have come across it or void areas using its location header and theme but that a path to the Hall itself has yet to be discovered?

It still would be interesting to find the real Hall. It's strange that it hasn't already shown up, though it's probably just coincidence. In Diamond and Pearl Arceus apparently is there (though can't be interacted with) so it would be a novelty to see.

Yes, without setting the event flags, Arceus's sprite appears at the real Hall of Origin in Diamond and Pearl as well as Platinum but it cannot be interacted with.


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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2015, 11:31:51 am »
Sorry, I meant may as in potentially. I don't think it ever did happen, I just don't know of any reason it wouldn't be possible.


In the spirit of experimentation, I decided to follow the instructions to reach the beta Jubilife place "in Zow's vid". Instead of starting at Poketch Co, however, I started from Spear Pillar. I have vague memories of a theory that Jubilife City places are all over the void because you start exploring from there, so I thought I'd try starting somewhere else... but it didn't make any difference to the locations that show up. So that's that rumour proven wrong, and also some evidence (perhaps not conclusive proof) that the void has the same layout regardless of the entry point.

Anyway, the interesting thing (in my mind at least) is that when I got there, it had the 3d perspective enabled. Crystalmourne visits the same place here, but it's shown in 2d. Another difference is that the npc is invisible (the shadow is still there) and can't be talked to.

Saving and resetting didn't change the camera, but made the npc appear.
Going downstairs to the next (still beta) map reset the camera to normal.


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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2015, 11:51:39 am »
I have vague memories of a theory that Jubilife City places are all over the void because you start exploring from there, so I thought I'd try starting somewhere else... but it didn't make any difference to the locations that show up. So that's that rumour proven wrong, and also some evidence (perhaps not conclusive proof) that the void has the same layout regardless of the entry point.

Any void is full of Jubilifes because there's almost 65,000 Jubilife areas in the game (don't remember the exact number but I think the last valid area in DP which is Contest Hall is something like ID 554, so 555~65535 would be Jubilifes, that's an approximation, don't quote those numbers), because it was the first city programmed in the game. I also remember something about many Jubilifes in the void actually being negative map IDs that underflow and becomes Jubilifes.

About the void variance, it's something like this:

The Jubilife/430N void we know is actually the "Sinnoh void". Any overworld area should have the same void, which mean outdoors cities/routes as well, Jubilifes are just more common. It's the void with the most variety of areas so it's usually the target of exploration. Some areas are also subject to being affected by flags.

Small indoors areas voids are static except for the area between the two first Floaroma Meadow areas, known as 'second secion' (SS).

And there's bigger indoors areas, which I don't know much about or if they're actually that different from the small indoors ones, but I remember they have some interesting areas around them, but I don't know about far. Take Hearthome Gym (tweakable into) and some caves as examples.

(well sorry for some lack of certainty, most of this is 2010 knowledge and my memory is kinda bad)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 11:57:09 am by Pawny »
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SatoMew

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2015, 12:02:21 pm »
Sorry, I meant may as in potentially. I don't think it ever did happen, I just don't know of any reason it wouldn't be possible.

Oh, I see.

So that's that rumour proven wrong, and also some evidence (perhaps not conclusive proof) that the void has the same layout regardless of the entry point.

The void does certainly seem to have an order of sorts in the midst of all that "chaos". However, rebooting the game affects the void areas you find at any given time.

Anyway, the interesting thing (in my mind at least) is that when I got there, it had the 3d perspective enabled. Crystalmourne visits the same place here, but it's shown in 2d.

That is indeed interesting, I wonder what caused the change in the camera's perspective. Perhaps it has to do with the path you used?

Any void is full of Jubilifes because there's almost 65,000 Jubilife areas in the game (don't remember the exact number but I think the last valid area in DP which is Contest Hall is something like ID 554, so 555~65535 would be Jubilifes, that's an approximation, don't quote those numbers), because it was the first city programmed in the game. I also remember something about many Jubilifes in the void actually being negative map IDs that underflow and becomes Jubilifes.

The Contest Hall's map ID in Diamond and Pearl is 0x022E (558) and has the internal name "C05R1103". The only other map IDs with interesting internal names are 0x0000 ("EVERYWHERE"; apparently it's used by the Battle Tower void), 0x0001 ("NOTHING"), and 0x0002 ("UG"; the Underground, which can be found in the void like I showed earlier), but all of them use the "Mystery Zone" location header, although Spiky's DS Map Editor conflicts with the in-game data when it comes to the Battle Tower void in Platinum since the former states it's "Mystery Zone" while the latter displays "Faraway place" (in Diamond and Pearl, it is "Mystery Zone").

Small indoors areas voids are static except for the area between the two first Floaroma Meadow areas, known as 'second secion' (SS).

And there's bigger indoors areas, which I don't know much about or if they're actually that different from the small indoors ones, but I remember they have some interesting areas around them, but I don't know about far. Take Hearthome Gym (tweakable into) and some caves as examples.

By "static", you mean that the location never changes, correct?

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2015, 12:13:47 pm »
The Contest Hall's map ID in Diamond and Pearl is 0x022E (558)

Oh ok, so we should have 64977 placeholder Jubilifes.

By "static", you mean that the location never changes, correct?

Its void, actually. If you try to explore Pokétch's void, Jubi TV, Pokémart void, etc, without saving at 430N (which would take you to Sinnoh void like I said before) they should have the exact same areas except for the SS. They also don't seem to be affected by flags at all, different savefiles at different points on the game always had the same areas.
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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2015, 12:31:14 pm »
Its void, actually. If you try to explore Pokétch's void, Jubi TV, Pokémart void, etc, without saving at 430N (which would take you to Sinnoh void like I said before) they should have the exact same areas except for the SS. They also don't seem to be affected by flags at all, different savefiles at different points on the game always had the same areas.

Yes, they are all seemingly endless Mystery Zones as long as you are visible on the Town Map. For example, walking straight south in the Jubilife Poké Mart void will lead you to a Mystery Zone but if you go a bit west, you enter "Jubilife City" and other voids because you're already out of the Town Map's radar, thus you're no longer in the Mystery Zone that's part of the entry point's void (the Town Map will also instead show your last known location instead of changing as you move like in the Mystery Zone of the void of the location you originally entered from).

Also, I just found out that the Hiker in the Underground will freeze the game if you try to interact with him after getting there in the void.


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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2015, 12:35:04 pm »

That is indeed interesting, I wonder what caused the change in the camera's perspective. Perhaps it has to do with the path you used?

Nope, it seems the perspective carries over from where you started.
I did a really tiny trip to confirm this: Went North from Oreburgh Gate (the cave - it was the closest 3d place) until I hit Jubilife TV. Saved, went back down. The same effect happens here.

Since this is a real place, it also shows that it's a real "override" instead of maybe the beta place not having a perspective set.

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2015, 01:48:04 pm »
Nope, it seems the perspective carries over from where you started.
I did a really tiny trip to confirm this: Went North from Oreburgh Gate (the cave - it was the closest 3d place) until I hit Jubilife TV. Saved, went back down. The same effect happens here.

Since this is a real place, it also shows that it's a real "override" instead of maybe the beta place not having a perspective set.

Quite interesting, too bad that they dropped the 3D perspective from interior areas.

Also, at 319W from the center of the Hall of Origin's entry point (with the stairs above it and Mt. Coronet's entrance/exit below it) there's a Mystery Zone that plays the Underground theme. From there I walked a lot north, west, and south, and I came across a real Hall of Origin void surrounded by Mystery Zones to the south and east, a Solaceon Ruins void to the north, and an Iron Island void to the west.


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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2015, 10:24:40 am »
It's possible to track the location you're in through DeSmuME's RAM search while exploring the void, which is interesting. It's probably already known and not that hard to figure out if you know what you're doing, but I haven't seen any instructions so I've written some - at least, for my own method.
So far I've done this in US Pearl and Platinum.

The addresses are randomised on startup/reset, so I search for them each time.
I've got a good routine to find the right address while in the overworld:
Set data size to 2 bytes
Search for 3 while in Jubilife City
Search for 345 while in Route 204

At this point there are still ~20 matches, but the first one listed is the right one. (The others seem to copy it depending on what map it is - all switch to 2 for underground but only the first is set to 553 or etc. for Turnback Cave).

The part that's a bit less certain is keeping track of it after the save and reset at 430N, and later saves.
You need to keep track of the ID of 430N's Jubilife City, or the other place you're saving. (430N's specific ID varies, though only within a few hundred.)
After the save and reset, you need to reset the RAM search and search for that map ID. Then take one step and search for the place you're in now - likely Mystery Zone at ID 0, but other places are possible eg. Underground at ID 2.

Now can see what map ID you're in while exploring the void! You can compare to a list eg. from Spiky's Map Editor to find out which specific map you'll get if you save and backtrack.
This is useful to distinguish between maps of the same name (including real Jubilife houses from fake Jubilife overworld).

Potentially void exploration could be automated with a lua script that records this value as it travels. I might try this later, though I'll have to learn lua first. The void does vary between files (and a little between different attempts) so a full on map isn't too meaningful, but many places are consistent so I think it'd still be worth doing.

To clarify this method if the explanation is confusing, I made a video of me doing it in US Platinum. This was maybe a silly choice of game because I don't know any interesting places to go, and ended up choosing the entrance to Turnback Cave (it set more addresses than the others, I was curious!) Still, it's about the method, not the results.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smrOI6UJj_A&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

I go past plenty of negative Jubilife City areas but it's possible the map ID isn't actually signed, so it might not really mean anything.

We can also see the perspective override here, since Turnback Cave is shown in 2d until I change rooms.

SatoMew

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Re: "Void Knowledge Archive, by the members of HallofOrigin"
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2015, 11:29:43 am »
Wow, that's very neat. Thank you for sharing :)