Main Menu
Main Page
Forums
New pages
Recent changes
Random page
Help

Glitches
Arbitrary code execution
Pokémon cloning
Pomeg glitch and Glitzer Popping
Tweaking and voiding
Glitches by generation
Glitch categories

References/Resources
Databases
Disassembly projects
The Big HEX List
Pokémon cheat codes
Pokémon glitch terminology
Useful tools
More

Affiliates
Legendary Star Blob 2 (Hakuda)
Pokémon Speedruns wiki
PRAMA Initiative
Become an affiliate!

Technical
Site source code

Search Wiki

 

Search Forums

 

Author Topic: Revisiting categories and organization  (Read 1014 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Parzival

  • Buyer beware: House comes with 3 free skeletons in a closet of your choice.
  • GCLF Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • This box intentionally left blank. ...wait...
    • View Profile
    • (null)
Re: Natural glitches
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2019, 06:50:22 am »
Level 2A - Glitches with low usefulness and low damage chance. Example: the Mimic glitch. Counts as major, but not majorly useful.
Level 2B - Low usefulness, high damage potential. This would be where things like Super Glitch would go, due to saving failing nearly always.
Level 2C - High usefulness, low damage potential. Something like Pokedex 0x00 move manipulation or Send Party Mons to New Game. Basically "not as useful as ACE but has universally desirable effects."
Ask me about betrayal.
Ask me about depression.
Ask me about death.
Ask me about destruction.
Ask me about hardship.
I've been through s**t.
If you need to talk to someone, my PM inbox is always open.

bbbbbbbbba

  • Wiki Contributor
  • Offline Offline
  • CHARIZRAD 'M ROXORX or is it.
    • View Profile
Re: Natural glitches
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2019, 07:52:59 am »
The Mimic glitch is only at level 1 (more precisely, it's "level 0 -> 1"), and a "low" level 1 at that. All it does is to give Pokémon an illegal moveset. Trainer escape would be a "high" level 1, since even though it massively messes with the game logic, it ultimately works by putting a few specific flags in an inconsistent state.

I agree that controllability is a good criteria within level 2, but it is difficult to quantify. Maybe mass corruption can be level 2A and pinpoint corruption can be 2B?

Parzival

  • Buyer beware: House comes with 3 free skeletons in a closet of your choice.
  • GCLF Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • This box intentionally left blank. ...wait...
    • View Profile
    • (null)
Re: Natural glitches
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2019, 08:26:15 am »
that works, I guess
Ask me about betrayal.
Ask me about depression.
Ask me about death.
Ask me about destruction.
Ask me about hardship.
I've been through s**t.
If you need to talk to someone, my PM inbox is always open.

Sherkel

  • The first unquiring one to bare arms
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Is it an illusion, or a tower built on sand?
    • View Profile
Re: Natural glitches
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2019, 02:07:35 pm »
On that note, can we have pages on glitched speedrun routes (they are public domain, right?) with detailed analysis for the glitches? Not only would that be useful to people new to speedrun, having those detailed analysis may also help with finding alternate routes (maybe backup strats) or even improvements. Plus, for some glitches we would be able to just link to examples in the speedrun, instead of putting overcomplicated examples in the glitch page.
The ones I've seen have all been just a few clicks away on PSR, though in the case of some newer ones they were only linked in the Discord first. I'm sure those were made public too, though. They do have the consistent "flaw" of merely being guides, for instance saying "get to Viridian Forest this way" instead of saying (or even mentioning) "this activates this meta-map script when these values have been set". However, I'm not sure if we should just copy them and expand on them, as we aren't PSR and routing isn't our particular focus...I might change my mind on that, though. I think the relevant glitches already link to examples in recorded runs, though if they aren't, they should be.

I feel it needs to be more verbose, maybe 5 instead of 4, due to Level 2 in the 4-tier system having some ambiguity due to varying glitch use/unintentional-damage potential/strength.

Of course there will be different "sublevels" in each level (as I mentioned, even ACE methods can be different in application), but the line can be really difficult to draw. If you can come up with a relatively clear criteria to split my level 2, then sure. Otherwise, I think it's best to keep it simple.
How this will translate to categories, what users see when browsing the wiki, ease of navigation and the like is still up in the air, though. The level divisions are justifiable and make sense to anyone who's read a few pages, but I am wary of too many categories...as you said, it should be kept simple. Not sure exactly how though, yet...
 
 

Raven Freak

  • Member+
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • She's the cutest female trainer!
    • View Profile
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2019, 06:51:31 pm »
I think these four categories are how I would organize glitches on the wiki, what do you guys think? Is it over the top, or too many categories?
Oversights:
Just some random oversights left in the game, whether it be leftovers from a previous version of a map, or surfing on the statues. This can be 1A. Things in this category just doesn't do much to affect gameplay, and is there for a good chuckle.

Useful Harmless Glitches:
Basically glitches in this category can help the player and of course doesn't do harm to your save file. Speedrunning glitches can fall under this too. Going with the numbering system this can be 1B.

Advance glitches:
Glitches in this category can alter the game's code and may potentially be harmful, especially if you don't know how to perform them. ACE would definitely fit this category, perhaps other glitches can fall under this category too? This would be 2A.

Harmful glitches:
As the title states, these glitches will either destroy your save file, or simply make the game crash/freeze. Glitch moves that cause Super Glitch would fall under this category of course, even though in some occasions the move doesn't do harm. The divide by zero growth rate glitch found in Yellow can fall under this glitch category as well too. This can be 2B.

bbbbbbbbba

  • Wiki Contributor
  • Offline Offline
  • CHARIZRAD 'M ROXORX or is it.
    • View Profile
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2019, 10:16:35 pm »
Oversights:
Just some random oversights left in the game, whether it be leftovers from a previous version of a map, or surfing on the statues. This can be 1A. Things in this category just doesn't do much to affect gameplay, and is there for a good chuckle.

Useful Harmless Glitches:
Basically glitches in this category can help the player and of course doesn't do harm to your save file. Speedrunning glitches can fall under this too. Going with the numbering system this can be 1B.

Advance glitches:
Glitches in this category can alter the game's code and may potentially be harmful, especially if you don't know how to perform them. ACE would definitely fit this category, perhaps other glitches can fall under this category too? This would be 2A.

Harmful glitches:
As the title states, these glitches will either destroy your save file, or simply make the game crash/freeze. Glitch moves that cause Super Glitch would fall under this category of course, even though in some occasions the move doesn't do harm. The divide by zero growth rate glitch found in Yellow can fall under this glitch category as well too. This can be 2B.

The way I see it, "useful" and "harmful" are pretty subjective criteria, although maybe in practice that wouldn't be a problem.

Also, your 2A and 2B again only differ in controllability.

I think the advantage of your system is that it singles out the most interesting glitches to the average player (1B and 2A); however, the most interesting glitches to the average glitcher are probably different.

Krys3000

  • French living dexer
  • Distinguished Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Head admin of the PRAMA Initiative
    • View Profile
    • PRAMA Initiative - Main french Pokémon glitch website
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2019, 12:49:43 am »
At PRAMA, we try to organize the glitches and pages in a "learn how to glitch" fashion. We present minor glitches, then split major glitches in three categories called "For a good start", "Upper-level glitches" and "Advanced techniques". These are categories solely based on the amount of knowledge required to perform the glitch (even if the glitch is very simple but has an ACE pre-requisite for example). The idea is that the newcomer starts its journey into glitching by learning the basics and then progressively moves on complicated stuff.

But that's the main purpose of PRAMA - to provide accurate but newbie-friendly information that will make them want to jump into it. GCL is something else, so those categories probably won't fit here.

Admin of the PRAMA Initiative, the main french Pokémon glitch website
http://www.prama-initiative.com
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Isaac Asimov

Sherkel

  • The first unquiring one to bare arms
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Is it an illusion, or a tower built on sand?
    • View Profile
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2019, 12:12:36 pm »
At PRAMA, we try to organize the glitches and pages in a "learn how to glitch" fashion. We present minor glitches, then split major glitches in three categories called "For a good start", "Upper-level glitches" and "Advanced techniques". These are categories solely based on the amount of knowledge required to perform the glitch (even if the glitch is very simple but has an ACE pre-requisite for example). The idea is that the newcomer starts its journey into glitching by learning the basics and then progressively moves on complicated stuff.

But that's the main purpose of PRAMA - to provide accurate but newbie-friendly information that will make them want to jump into it. GCL is something else, so those categories probably won't fit here.
I'm glad that you chimed in! That approach is yet another viable option. I'm wondering now, for anyone from PRAMA, GCL, or both, what do you consider the difference between the two sites?
 
 

Krys3000

  • French living dexer
  • Distinguished Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Head admin of the PRAMA Initiative
    • View Profile
    • PRAMA Initiative - Main french Pokémon glitch website
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2019, 01:45:31 pm »
When PRAMA was made, there were already several english-speaking Pokémon glitch websites, so it was really meant to be a french ressource before anything else- to bring the basic information to french gamers. This is why it focuses almost exclusively on glitches that work on french games.  :P

That being said, to me PRAMA was also built as a vulgarization tool to get 'normal Pokémon players' into glitches, even if they are complete newbies. Within generations, glitches are organized from the easiest to the most complex; the choice of words is thought to be user-friendly with almost no technical words and all the technical stuff is regrouped in a separate section at the end of every glitch, that a reader is free not to read because it won't contain something that is required to perform the glitch (but may of course help to fix issues).

For instance, this leads us to write things like 'this glitch can also be performed using ACE, a more complex glitch that you will discover later on our pages (or by clicking here, if you want to jump to it right now)' or 'as already explained in the technical section of the Old Man Trick, the game is composed of... and we will use this to...' etc. The idea is not to push people on things before they have mastered what they are currently reading.

I see GCL very differently. For me, it's a website already meant for people who know a bit of glitches. The information is here, but not directly brought to you, you need to make your way into it. It's a wiki, an encyclopedia, if you're a newbie, you get on a complex glitch page here and won't understand something every three words. But then, you click on words and learn things that help you understand. The benefit of this format is that pages are shorter and quicker to read, containing no more than necessary.

When I started Pokémon glitches, I had absolutely no knowledge in computers, programming, etc. Words like stack, opcodes, addresses and even bytes or memory mean nothing to newbies. I actually had a hard time dealing with some very technical websites and glitch experts who couldn't understand that I had no idea of what they were trying to explain to me :D. I believe this is normal, it is always hard to vulgarize something that you master daily. But it basically motivated me to make PRAMA in this particular fashion :)

Admin of the PRAMA Initiative, the main french Pokémon glitch website
http://www.prama-initiative.com
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Isaac Asimov

Sherkel

  • The first unquiring one to bare arms
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Is it an illusion, or a tower built on sand?
    • View Profile
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2019, 07:50:31 pm »
Very cool to finally hear the origin story behind PRAMA! :)

I think that was a great choice of direction to go in considering how few French glitchers there were. Taking it all into account, I think GCL should continue being the site you described it as.
 
 

bbbbbbbbba

  • Wiki Contributor
  • Offline Offline
  • CHARIZRAD 'M ROXORX or is it.
    • View Profile
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2019, 08:23:34 pm »
The ones I've seen have all been just a few clicks away on PSR, though in the case of some newer ones they were only linked in the Discord first. I'm sure those were made public too, though. They do have the consistent "flaw" of merely being guides, for instance saying "get to Viridian Forest this way" instead of saying (or even mentioning) "this activates this meta-map script when these values have been set". However, I'm not sure if we should just copy them and expand on them, as we aren't PSR and routing isn't our particular focus...I might change my mind on that, though. I think the relevant glitches already link to examples in recorded runs, though if they aren't, they should be.

After thinking about this, I think the fact routing isn't our focus is exactly why we want to have copies of the routes on our own pages, so that we can separate the glitch part from the pure routing part and properly focus on the former. We can always gloss over the parts that aren't glitch-related.

Linking to speedrun videos doesn't do much, because as I said they have the wrong focus, and some of the glitches actually need quite a bit of explaining.

Parzival

  • Buyer beware: House comes with 3 free skeletons in a closet of your choice.
  • GCLF Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • This box intentionally left blank. ...wait...
    • View Profile
    • (null)
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2019, 01:57:25 am »
Linking to speedrun videos doesn't do much, because as I said they have the wrong focus, and some of the glitches actually need quite a bit of explaining.
I mean... visual examples would help with understanding the steps to do the glitches/tricks for most people.
Ask me about betrayal.
Ask me about depression.
Ask me about death.
Ask me about destruction.
Ask me about hardship.
I've been through s**t.
If you need to talk to someone, my PM inbox is always open.

Sherkel

  • The first unquiring one to bare arms
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Is it an illusion, or a tower built on sand?
    • View Profile
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2019, 11:36:07 am »
After thinking about this, I think the fact routing isn't our focus is exactly why we want to have copies of the routes on our own pages, so that we can separate the glitch part from the pure routing part and properly focus on the former. We can always gloss over the parts that aren't glitch-related.
While I don't particularly agree, I'll add it to Wiki tasks for now as a possibility. They would be a good example of "how to break the game and why it works", but routes are constantly receiving optimizations, and the glitches involved are already getting their own pages.

Back to organization and page visibility, I brought this up in Discord earlier to...again, no decisive response (aside from a general desire not to overcomplicate it.) For now, I'll be narrowing down the "Major glitches" category to 20 or 30 from the 123 that are in there now, and adding each item currently in the "Glitches" section of the sidebar (narrowed down again yesterday) to the front page with a one-sentence summary so that visitors know where to start looking.
 
 

Sherkel

  • The first unquiring one to bare arms
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Is it an illusion, or a tower built on sand?
    • View Profile
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2019, 12:16:53 pm »

After thinking about this, I think the fact routing isn't our focus is exactly why we want to have copies of the routes on our own pages, so that we can separate the glitch part from the pure routing part and properly focus on the former. We can always gloss over the parts that aren't glitch-related.

Linking to speedrun videos doesn't do much, because as I said they have the wrong focus, and some of the glitches actually need quite a bit of explaining.
Taking back whatever I said. This is just brilliant. I'll add any articles like this to the Reference documents category, as well as their own. I think speedrun routes documented in this manner deserve a sidebar spot more than GameShark codes, but I'll wait for at least one more vote on that. (I'll help if I can, but honestly with my current level of knowledge I don't think there's much I could do.)

I take it this means a "Luck manipulation (Generation II)" page will be possible now as well? Or should the Gen I page be renamed to include both?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 12:37:36 pm by Sherkel »
 
 

bbbbbbbbba

  • Wiki Contributor
  • Offline Offline
  • CHARIZRAD 'M ROXORX or is it.
    • View Profile
Re: Revisiting categories and organization
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 04:11:34 pm »
Hmm... I just checked the Gen II RNG, and the core function seems to be exactly the same as Gen I (except that the framely RNG advancement is spelled out in VBlank rather than as a function call). But I'm sure that there are many differences because surrounding codes determine what matters, and frame windows are also an important consideration for RTA.

For this kind of situations, I think it might be best to use the article length as a criterion. The Gen I luck manipulation page is already pretty long, and tacking some Gen II content onto it would probably either make the new content invisible, or make the article too confusing as a whole. Therefore I think "Luck manipulation (Generation II)" should be a separate page; if the overlap turns out to be substantial, we can always move the overlapping part to the parent page.

To be honest, I don't consider my level of knowledge to be high either (especially with Gen II), but BGB + pret + a bit of time usually gets you there. It would be much appreciated if people in the speedrunning community would help.